Re: Anti-Religion

[mBishop]

I've just briefly perused this thread...

Since it started by stating that God needs to be kept out of it... I beg to differ.


One of the reasons Alcoholics Anonymous is so good at what it does, is because of their tenets.   Here are the 12 steps/tenets.

   1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
   2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
   3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
   4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
   5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
   6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
   7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
   8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
   9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
  10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
  11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
  12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program



Whether the higher power you submit yourself to is God or otherwise, the only way to conquer alcoholism is to submit your will to a higher power.



When you take the higher power out of the equation, for ANYTHING in life, we are left with naked humanity, and I know what humans are capable of.  Take the higher power out of the picture, and we are left with humanity unchecked, without consequences.  If humanity is the highest authority, then we're fucked.


There is no morality without a higher power or absolute truths.

[toker]

Whether the higher power you submit yourself to is God or otherwise, the only way to conquer alcoholism is to submit your will to a higher power.

I've been to both NA and AA which many cases was nothing more then addicts looking for other addicts to get high with. I can say with 100% certainty that god had absolutely nothing to do with me quitting both narcotics and drinking. Getting a first hand look at what it did to destroy peoples lives including my own family was what opened my eyes. I used to do MJ, Acid, Ecstasy and used to drink my ass off just about every night of the week for over 10 years. My father has had 3 DUI's and is not only an alcoholic but also a compulsive gambler and an ex hardcore drug user who served over 6 years in prison. He also goes to church every Sunday is a born again who knows the bible in and out and has been through every state drug and alcohol treatment program in existence which accomplished nothing. Both my grandmothers and grandfathers on both sides of my family were alcoholics all of whom quit and none had ever gone to any recovery programs.

You either have the will to quit within you or you don't it's really that simple. But the problem for most addicts is they build a network of friends who are into the same lifestyle. So when it comes time to try and quit they are often discouraged or get pulled back in because due to the affiliations with other addicts. You are going to have a hell of a time putting down the bottle whole sitting in bars every night. You will also have a hard time if your spouse is doing it and does it in front of you. You can ask god to help you resist the temptation but if you believe in what Christianity teaches then you should know god does not command your life. There are people who pray every waking moment for their children with cancer to be healed but those prayers are never answered. Yet some people seem to think god is going to intervene and help them put down the bottle while innocent children are paying for everyone else's sins. To me that idea seems to hold as much logic as a bucket with a hole in the bottom.

I had a niece who died from brain cancer about two years ago at age five. Her father was/is a die hard born again who never touched a drink in his life. Her grandmother is a born again bible thumper to the very core and she had lots of people praying for her recovery. Yet in return for all the many Sundays her family spent in church and all the time they spent thumping that bible god simply let her die a very slow and painful death. And when i question as to why this god did not save her the answer is that "god wanted her to be with him". I would have to say he sounds like a pretty selfish god and certainly not one i care to ask for help when i need it. I wont totally abandon Christianity and say there is no god but i can say for damn sure that god is most certainly not the reason people quit drinking. Also consider the most people who end up in a recovery program are either court ordered, have done prison time or are suffering from liver or kidney disease and have no other choice but the possibility of death.

And lets not forget porn goes against true Christian family values which would make all of us immoral sinners for being part of this industry. Though it's very typical that most Christians tend to only have a problem when other people are the ones sewing the bad seeds. It also just so happened that i came across a great piece on this very subject today. He probably makes a better argument then me and i totally agree with his view. I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to believe in or pray to their god. But do not impose or try to force your god on me or my family and there wont be any need for me to get violent and impose my fists and nukes upon you or your nation.

Philosopher: Why we should ditch religion http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/03/25/ted.sam.harris/index.html?hpt=Mid

[athenahollow]

I was raised Baptist. I am agnostic. I think there's something, but for that 'all powerful being' to somehow have a vested interest in just us and nothing else is both selfish and egotistical of us all.

Now, am I with moral majority? Fuck no. I think girls can get abortions, you should be able to do what you want with your body so long as it doesn't hurt someone else and I make porn.
Does that mean I'm more likely to go out and hurt someone else? No. In fact, from all of my experience in and studying religion, it makes me LESS likely.

Gay bashings, the Holocaust, racism, and holy wars. The things they all have in common: Ignorance and the inability (or sometimes just refusal) to accept something that you don't necessarily understand.

Want to know the biggest reason for all of those things: God. ZOMG! HOLY SHIT!

I agree 100% with removing God. There's a reason why there's a clear 'separation of church and state' clause. Not all religions are created equally, and until you go as far as acknowledging every single religion as well as their respected gods, it should never blend into politics, public schools or government buildings. Otherwise, you are saying 'Hey, you're ok if you are from a Christian religion, but god forbid you be Buddhist, Taoist, Pagan or else wise. You just aren't important enough. Sorry'.

[Wolf]

See how I brought this section of the forum back to life? 

[toker]

I love that shirt Athena is wearing.  

[Wolf]

I was gonna be a gentleman and not mention how much I agree with it, lol.

[mBishop]

There's a reason why there's a clear 'separation of church and state' clause.

Technically, the phrase "Separation of Church and State" was taken out of context from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/987191/posts

The first amendment was meant to keep government out of the church, not church out of the government.


"Separation" "Church" and "State" are not mentioned at all in the first amendment, pertaining to religion.

[athenahollow]

Well, to that extent, we could say they wanted every American to have a pair of bear arms on their walls.

'Intent' and 'Meant To's' aren't concise. Unfortunately as it's written, it would pertain to keeping them both separate. But I digress, my original point is that if you are going to include religion in government, you have to make it all inclusive. I.E. 'your respected religious figure' instead of 'god' etc. Unfortunately we live in a very PC age, and the mere idea of sharing the word 'god' between most Christians and Muslims is absurd and unheard of to those that follow those religions. So either make it all or nothing. And since they'll never make it all, remove that shit from everything.

[mBishop]

Well, to that extent, we could say they wanted every American to have a pair of bear arms on their walls.

'Intent' and 'Meant To's' aren't concise. Unfortunately as it's written, it would pertain to keeping them both separate. But I digress, my original point is that if you are going to include religion in government, you have to make it all inclusive. I.E. 'your respected religious figure' instead of 'god' etc. Unfortunately we live in a very PC age, and the mere idea of sharing the word 'god' between most Christians and Muslims is absurd and unheard of to those that follow those religions. So either make it all or nothing. And since they'll never make it all, remove that shit from everything.

Fair enough...  But mentioning Political Correctness opens up a whole another can of worms. :)

[Rofl]

Wolf, ya troublesome link baiter ;)

[Wolf]

Yep, always the troublemaker........